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You're responding to a post that says you have to follow the rules, i.e. the legal contract between Apple and Epic, but you post a quote from Steve Jobs that says nothing about breaking said rules.
I'm not "fond" of taxes, but I still pay them because I legally have to.

And in breaking those rules, the rules were scrutinized and found to be in violation of the law in itself. So here we are. Civil contracts don't superseed law.

If epic played ball all along then today's situation may have evolved differently. So in this case; yes the misfits did indeed change (apple's) world.
 
This is one of the major things wrong with America: you have to be extremely wealthy to get justice
 
Because of this I’ve lost all respect for Apple forever. I’ve recently started playing Fortnite on Switch and enjoyed it immensely. If Fortnite isn’t allowed back I’ll never purchase another Apple product again.
 
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IDK if Epic Games is a public company, but if it is, the shareholders should have kicked Sweeney out. All he did was cost Epic Games huge money.
 
Because of this I’ve lost all respect for Apple forever. I’ve recently started playing Fortnite on Switch and enjoyed it immensely. If Fortnite isn’t allowed back I’ll never purchase another Apple product again.
Stop it. Yes you will.
 
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That's either a fantastic rage-bait comment or extremely ignorant, it's clever enough that I can't tell. This decision benefits (virtually) the whole industry, not just Epic. Tim fought this for his own benefit but also on behalf of every developer that doesn't have the money to fight Apple.
What was there to fight? When the money is flowing, everyone is happy. Apple made money for EVERYONE, by giving all developers easy access to customer money.

Sweeney was a tool. Cost his company a billion dollars. And for what, so he can set up a store and charge a commission? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. ha ha ha.

He should have been removed from any decision making position.
 
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I suspect I am an outlier though
I wouldn’t be so sure about that ;)

I trust Apple much, much more than I trust any developer.
So do I. At least to keep up their activation servers for a long time, and allowing me access to previous purchases and seamless “activation” on new devices.

That said, I’m not willing to pay too much a premium, and more than willing to pay developers I trust. In addition, Mac App Store apps are subject to additional technical restrictions and limitations, which is why some developers have left it.
 
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IDK if Epic Games is a public company, but if it is, the shareholders should have kicked Sweeney out
Sweeney was - and I believe still is - one of the largest shareholders.

What was there to fight? When the money is flowing, everyone is happy. Apple made money for EVERYONE, by giving all developers easy access to customer money.
I don’t know what you do for a living.

But I wish suppliers were able demand a 30% cut of your revenue and/or restrict your ability to contact and transact with your customers.

While competing with your own product/service.

Sweeney was a tool. Cost his company a billion dollars. And for what, so he can set up a store and charge a commission?
Well, for now he can.

And enjoy the satisfaction of having done the right thing (for smaller developers and consumers).
And at least partly succeeding (though in great part rather due to Apple’s arrogance and greed than his own legal action, to be fair).
 
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Yes I did, which is why I can tell you that Epic vs Google was presided over by Judge Donato. This was specifically about Google's actions in the mobile market space. As I mentioned, you are looking the ADDITIONAL suit brought by the U.S. DoJ -- which was presided over by Judge Leonie Brinkema.
 
I think this article does a pretty good job of explaining why Google lost their case by Apple won theirs, but unfortunately it's behind a paywall. Here's the key point:



In other words, Google’s was trying to have its cake and eat it too. It was saying it was the "open" choice that allowed competition, but its practices, such as exclusive agreements and restrictive policies, effectively limited competition, which the jury found to be anticompetitive. In contrast, Apple’s closed ecosystem was a known characteristic that customers actively chose, and therefore did not violate antitrust laws in the same way.
Correct! That is to say that "monopolies" are not illegal in and of themselves. There are natural monopolies, gained monopolies, and legal monopolies. Quoting the FTC: "it is not illegal for a company to have a monopoly, to charge "high prices," or to try to achieve a monopoly position by what might be viewed by some as particularly aggressive methods."

That said, as far as a businesses monopoly is concerned, the interpretation has been that: "The law is violated [section 2, Sherman Act] only if the company tries to maintain or acquire a monopoly through unreasonable methods."

So this should be easy then, right -- every arm chair expert should be shouting, "Apple unreasonably maintains their monopoly by not allowing any other App Store on the iOS platform. There! Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! Break open the App store! Huzzah!"

Well, there is case history already on this. Of which, typically no one wants to care about because: "Who cares. If they aren't an abusive monopoly -- then their actions are anti-competitive or whatever, it's corporate greed gone wild." And you know, that's actually not an unreasonable argument.

But, the case history and precedence from former lawsuits does matter -- leading to (Apple v Google) Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers's decision that Apple was not unreasonable or abusive in their maintenance of their monopoly. Only the anti-steering provision of the developers agreement was deemed unenforceable. Ruling that Apple had to allow developers to be able to link to their own website offer subscription sales. Non-subscription sales maybe included too, but I'm not sure.

However, Apple very reasonably sees that as a chick in the armor. And so as a corporate decision (or maybe just a Tim Cook decision alone) they decided that they'd charge 27% on these out-of-app purchases and institute those "scare screens" when clicking the links.

This is where my 'faux' legal understand starts to fall apart: This may have been address as part of the original case or maybe it was addressed in the follow up (i don't know). I suppose it can be argued that under the auspice that the sale would have never happened otherwise Apple can plausibility derive that 27%.

But either way the judge wasn't having it and, here is the kicker: Now Apple has "unreasonably" maintained it's monopoly. They were told they had to allow the links. And maybe they were told they couldn't derive any fees from those sales. But, Apple did charge 27% and did try to scare users who clicked on those links. So the judge has brought down hellfire on Apple for it.
 
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So here’s the thing. The judge originally said that Apple to charge a fair commission based on reasons, needs, costs, etc., but Apple chose 27%, which would have cost devs more due to extra fees, with zero evidence to justify it. Apple could have still found this slightly profitable, but the judge ruled due to their non-compliant picking the worst solution, along with other scare tactics, that now they can’t change anything and they have no control over how the external link is presented in the app.

Apple did it to themselves by ignoring Phil Schiller’s advice.

That being said, Epic got themselves banned by breaking their dev account contract terms and sneaking an alternative payment method in a silent update. That won’t be overturned because the judge ruled it was an obvious violation.
it would be kind of funny if some "other company" just chose to license Fortnight from Epic to be allowed to distribute it on the iOS platform. And effectively circumvent the ban in this manner xD
 
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I think to a certain extent. It’s a balance. I’d argue they chose meeting each quarter’s expectations over the long term strategic good for the company - and its shareholders.

I think it’s fair to say that Apple’s third party developers mostly despise them now.

Apple has shown that they don’t respect them and just see them as a resource to be milked.

There is a world where Apple:

- could’ve been agile and realised that the 30% fee (for big successful apps) was untenable now.

- explained this to their shareholders telling them that they needed to make some concessions as it was important to keep devs on side.

- because Apple wanted their devs to be enthusiastic about implementing their new platform features and indeed their new platforms.

Instead we have a world where Apple saw the iPhone business maturing and slowly declining and used the service revenue - largely the App Store - to keep meeting their figures.

Now devs will likely do the bare minimum that consumers and businesses expect & what Apple’s App Store rules say.

We have a world where barely none of Apple’s third party devs helped Apple with Vision Pro.

And where Apple just thought it was their right to keep on taking their cut & to set the terms of their cut.

Now - in the USA - this is gone (I don’t think Apple’s appeal will be successful) and it’s all their own fault for prioritising their own needs each immediate quarter over everything else.

And as we are entering the age of genai, Apple seems especially vulnerable. Because guess which company chose not to invest in genai properly and is spectacularly behind on it?

It’ll be easier for google to get to the iPhone’s hardware quality and combine it with a Gemini product that acts as an incredible personal assistant thst becomes a must have product, than it will for Apple to bring Siri up to this level.

And/or google can achieve this with Samsung.

So I’m not sure if Apple’s future will be as rosy as the last 20 years or so. And they only have themselves to blame because they prioritised rinsing the iPhone and App Store for as much $ as they could over everything else.
Exactly, and this is why I despise public companies. The majority of the time, its the business/finance shareholders/investors that ultimately run the company instead of passionate people.
 
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But, the case history and precedence from former lawsuits does matter -- leading to (Apple v Google) Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers's decision that Apple was not unreasonable or abusive in their maintenance of their monopoly. Only the anti-steering provision of the developers agreement was deemed unenforceable. Ruling that Apple had to allow developers to be able to link to their own website offer subscription sales. Non-subscription sales maybe included too, but I'm not sure.
IIRC, there wasn't a restriction on the cost. As no judge could resonably determine what any company can or can't charge its customers. Going back to the earlier point of even if you are a monopoly, you can charge what you want. With the idea being, it doesn't mean you're going to get people to actually pay for it.
However, Apple very reasonably sees that as a chick in the armor. And so as a corporate decision (or maybe just a Tim Cook decision alone) they decided that they'd charge 27% on these out-of-app purchases and institute those "scare screens" when clicking the links.
This is also a security issue for Apple. If they allow everyone a link out. It doesn't prohibit that link from being redirected to a non trusted place. Hence the scare screens, since that is on the developer side now. Or maybe even prevent a developer from changing the app, a-la-EPIC to simply keeping the IAP within the app and NOT taking you outside the store to a website for the transaction. It simply may be too fungible to keep the doors locked and windows closed on iOS. At least more work than they (Apple) deems is worth it.
This is where my 'faux' legal understand starts to fall apart: This may have been address as part of the original case or maybe it was addressed in the follow up (i don't know). I suppose it can be argued that under the auspice that the sale would have never happened otherwise Apple can plausibility derive that 27%.
This would be my interpretation as well. You the customer went to Apple for the device. You the customer picked an app in the store to pay for. Apple made both possible. "IF" you the customer wanted to pay the developer directly for any service they offer, subscription or otherwise. You the customer can all on your own go to the developers/vendors website to pay them directly. Either via the Safari browser OR outside of it via any other means you may have.
But if you do it via the App, aka the easy way. Apple should get a cut of the sale as they made it easy for you to do so. And the developer should charge what they wish. This is the value add from Apple and for being on the AppStore. Which customers "trust" to be secure and as Apple likes to say "Just works!".

And I stated above I'm 99% sure that the government or for that matter Judges CAN NOT determine prices for business. As if they could, you can imagine a world in which Trump would fix gasoline prices in the US to $2 a gallon. Or Bread and eggs to $3 or something. So it's not something the Judge can do. And I think why Apple can appeal the decision, and still end up having to add the link out WITH the scare screens. As how can the Judge determine exactly what a scare screens message is to look like? There isn't exactly a law that shows you "MESSAGES MUST LOOK LIKE THIS EXACTLY".
But either way the judge wasn't having it and, here is the kicker: Now Apple has "unreasonably" maintained it's monopoly. They were told they had to allow the links. And maybe they were told they couldn't derive any fees from those sales. But, Apple did charge 27% and did try to scare users who clicked on those links. So the judge has brought down hellfire on Apple for it.
If I'm not mistaken Apple did appeal those parts of her ruling. Not sure where it was they did that. But, based on my understanding the Judge could not prohibit Apple from taking a cut of sales derived "originally from the AppStore. Or at least that is how Apple feels about it, and I personally agree with it.

However this all turns out. I still think EPIC failed in its quest to punish Apple. And because it's not like the end result IS less expensive products for me as a consumer to purchase. EVERYTHING costs more ANYWAY.
 
it would be kind of funny if some "other company" just chose to license Fortnight from Epic to be allowed to distribute it on the iOS platform. And effectively circumvent the ban in this manner xD
EPIC would never allow it for the same reason Apple or anyone else wouldn't. It's their IP, and a cash cow.
 
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And I stated above I'm 99% sure that the government or for that matter Judges CAN NOT determine prices for business. As if they could, you can imagine a world in which Trump would fix gasoline prices in the US to $2 a gallon. Or Bread and eggs to $3 or something. So it's not something the Judge can do. And I think why Apple can appeal the decision, and still end up having to add the link out WITH the scare screens. As how can the Judge determine exactly what a scare screens message is to look like? There isn't exactly a law that shows you "MESSAGES MUST LOOK LIKE THIS EXACTLY".

If I'm not mistaken Apple did appeal those parts of her ruling. Not sure where it was they did that. But, based on my understanding the Judge could not prohibit Apple from taking a cut of sales derived "originally from the AppStore. Or at least that is how Apple feels about it, and I personally agree with it.
There are a few parts of the ruling Apple is appealing, at a very high level:
1) Apple argues a judge cannot set the price for use of Apple's property, and it definitely can't set that price at zero. It's against federal law and is also unconstitutional.
2) Apple also argues the judge is infringing on Apple's freedom of speech rights by making them host speech they don't want to.
3) Apple points out that since the original ruling in 2021, a California court adjudicated the same California law that the judge found Apple in violation of. In contrast to the federal judge, the California courts found that Apple's anti-steering policy was not in violation of that law, therefore her original ruling that California courts would find Apple's conduct as illegal is wrong. That means the original order should be pulled in the first place, because a California court's interpretation of their California law overrides a federal's court's interpretation of California's laws. The judge ignored this fact.

Apple also raises other, what seem to me to be administrative issues, with how the revised order was issued that Apple flags as wrong.

Whether or not these arguments are compelling to an appeals court I have no idea, but those are Apple's main points.
 
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EPIC would never allow it for the same reason Apple or anyone else wouldn't. It's their IP, and a cash cow.
Well they started this whole process with Apple willing to burn money.

And nothing prevents this separate company just happens to pay all the profits as a licensing fee to Epic 🤷‍♂️

Plus theirs to many ways to play dirty without technically breaking any law or the agreement with Apple.

So we will se how their Swedish company who wasn’t banned will fair as it has sent in fortnight for review. As I7Guy tend to say. It’s not over until it’s over


Edit: spelling
And many do give away their IP for free if it's something else they get in return.
Fortnite is a free game after all, they earn their money on the vBucks and all that
 
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Well they started this whole process with Apple willing to burn money.

Nothing prevents this separate company just happens to pay all the profits as a licensing fee to Epic 🤷‍♂️

To many ways to play dirty without breaking any law or the agreement with Apple.

We will se how their Swedish company who wasn’t banned will fair as it has sent in fortnight for review. As I7Guy tend to say. It’s not over until it’s over

We are entering some pretty interesting times. Tariffs and possible recessions, etc. I don't anticipate anyone burning any money this year for the laughs.

Of course this is in hindsight, but had Tim S just went the legal route from the beginning, and JUST focused on the link out option. NOT broken the AppStore rules. He could have made billions during that time just fine and gotten something out of the courts in his favor. Just in time for the world to start falling apart, and people saving not spending on any Chinese made goods (mainly electronics etc.). His vBucks would be a bargain comparatively.
 
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how do you pay $100 million in legal fees? like the lawyer will say i'll take the case give me $100 million!?
 
We are entering some pretty interesting times. Tariffs and possible recessions, etc. I don't anticipate anyone burning any money this year for the laughs.

Of course this is in hindsight, but had Tim S just went the legal route from the beginning, and JUST focused on the link out option. NOT broken the AppStore rules. He could have made billions during that time just fine and gotten something out of the courts in his favor. Just in time for the world to start falling apart, and people saving not spending on any Chinese made goods (mainly electronics etc.). His vBucks would be a bargain comparatively.
Indeed we are, considering the timing of Epics submission to the US app store. and the Brazilian ruling to provide it within 90 days. And obviosly nobody burns money for the fun of it unless you risk it for a potential return.

And i agree that Epic intentionally breaking the contract seems like a bad legal movie, but i could imagine that it was a calculated low risk high reward potential, and either apple simply didn't act as they hopped behind the scene. Or it gave them access to specific legal avenues and inquiry they wouldn't otherwise have.

Example them being able to get the internal documents regarding the costs of running the store and apple needing to "justify" their cut in regards to real lost revenue and damages.
how do you pay $100 million in legal fees? like the lawyer will say i'll take the case give me $100 million!?
this case (multiple with apple in the us) have been going on for 5 years. they have many lawyers, and legal fees for both sides they had to pay such as apples 74 million dollar legal fees
 
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